Greetings

Read in BERNAMA website. Defence Minister said that TUDM is phasing out the MIG for better machines. No details.

But for the sake of discussion, what are your thoughts? Malaysia banyak duit ke to go and look for another?

Cheers.

Dude,

RMAF is NOT phasing out those jets. There will be additions. Whether the Govt have money or not, it is a tough decision to be made. However, national security comes first.

Sarjana Six Zero, out!!

Yea.... I think better discuss about National security rather than our defense budget...

So, base on our country location and surrounding happening, is there any sort of foreseen or predicted issue on national security for us to grow and buy more "weapon"??

If yes, what kind of weapon? I meansea, land or air???

CPTan

RMAF MIG29 Jets To Be Phased Out - Zahid

BAGAN DATOH, June 1 (Bernama) -- The MIG-29N fighter jets of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) will be replaced with other interceptor jets to strengthen the force.

Defence Minister Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi said the matter had been discussed with RMAF chief General Tan Sri Azizan Ariffin and the aircraft would be replaced soon.

"I have decided that from next month, the aircraft be phased out and we should find a way to sell them to certain companies or countries approved by the United Nations," he told reporters after visiting the victims of a storm in Rungkup, here, Monday.

On the Sukhoi fighter jets received recently, he said the preparedness of the squadron stationed at the RMAF base in Gong Kedak, Kelantan had been proven as the members had received sufficient simulator training and other forms of training continuously.

On the 1Malaysia concept in the Malaysian Armed Forces, he said the ministry had carried out the 1Malaysia 1Force campaign through the concept of holistic defence and encouraging all races to join the territorial army.

In another development, Ahmad Zahid said the federal government had agreed to provide assistance to the storm victims in the Bagan Datoh parliamentary constituency with the involvement of 98 soldiers from the army's 2nd Division.

He said the Engineers Corps and Infantry brigade would rebuild or repair the homes damaged by the storm early last Saturday morning. The work will take about two weeks.

In the storm, the roofs of 408 houses were damaged or blown off, while 32 houses were badly damaged.

http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/ne....php?id=415211


I don't think they have too much money to get a new MRCA squadron. Even to get the NURI replacement, they have delay it for too many times

I havent been adding my comments for a while...

...but i'm a bit disappointed if its true.

If we phase them out, how many interceptors / fighters is RMAF going to have. Are they going to be replaced by additional Su-30's or a lower cost / performance fighter? We must realise that at the end of the day, numbers still matter even though the quality is improving (our neighbours also improving) - remember an aircraft can only still be at one place at a time.

I remember I was horrified when they only bought 8 Hornets for our all-weather strike capability. Lose 1 aircraft, and RMAF lose 12.5% of capability. That doesnt leave much / any room for attrition. There were statements coming out of Mindef saying that they were looking at further purchases but then now is already 2009...

HAHA, I smell $$$$$$$$$$$ Same old story lah

Should have standardised on a fleet of F16 and finish with it. Build up fleet by buying batches over the years. Training, parts etc all easy. Thats why its called multi role fighter!

But nooo....non aligned movement konon. Rubbish! Pay the price la :angry:

If they open a new tender, 'somebody' also will get a new project / contract. And maybeeee.... somebody will be a new victim for *4 ???

Damn! why phase it out so fast??? MiG-29N still relevant for about 10 more years if some sort of mid life upgrade project is performed.What a short thinking decision!

Bytheway, I heard somewhere TUDM is considering the Gripen NG for the replacement and some of their pilots are testing the J-10 & FC-17 Thunder in China right now. :ph43r:

Bytheway, Now i know the story behind this last year's new.

Kuala Lumpur Oct 6 (Bernama) : The Burma Air Force's move to buy second-hand MiG-29 planes from Malaysia has hit a roadblock. Officials say they are put off by the high price. Malaysian's quote for the MiG-29N planes is "too costly for second-hand planes that some of them have been lying in the hanger" said a senior defence official.
Malaysian had been trying to sell MiGs to Burma since the military junta showed interest in the planes after the Royal Malaysia Air Force ( RMAF ) announced that they will de-activate its Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) MiG MiG-29N multirole fighter aircraft fleet in 2007 to ensure enough fighter pilots are available to operate the Sukhoi Su-30MKMs that will be delivered that same year.

Burma acquired a total of ten MiG-29s from Russia, after a series of borde incidents with Thailand, in 2001. Two of these should have been MiG-29UB two-seaters. All of these aircraft were apparently "left-overs" from uncollected Iraqi order, built back in 1991 and overhauled before delivery. As delivered to Tamdaw Lay (Myanmar Air Force) the type wears this unusual disruptive camouflage pattern, similar only to that of MiG-29 in service with Bangladesh Air force. The MiG-29s are a natural upgrade to the Burmese Air Force which has 36 F-7M fighters in the arsenal as well as the trainer model the FT-7S, which is the Chinese version of the MiG-21.



no wonder they want to get rid my beloved MiG soo fast... :(

Lets hope they do put Nasional Security and pratical thinking first then "other" reasons. I do believe the MIGs will still be a potent inventory for the next 10 years. If judging by the Eurocopter case, wah.... sure someone will say better buy a paper plane because its cheap and can fly! (sorry, no mean to offend anyone, just a joke)

Pray for the best outcome.

I think what needs to be considered are these:

1) How much fatigue life do the MiG-29N/NUB have left (e.g. no. of hours flown)

2) If service life extension option is there, how much does it cost?

3) Mission capability rates, operating costs, maintenance man hours requirements, etc.

If all of these are looked at as a whole, and it just doesn't seem economical to continue operating the aircraft, then I suppose its logical to phase out an aircraft type, PROVIDED it doesn't create gaps in capability, and IF the $$$ is available.

The F-16C Block 25 airframe was designed with a 6,000 flight hour life, which was extended to 8,000 hours. F-16C Block 25's are now starting to be phased out of USAF ANG/AFRC service as airframes approach the 8,000 hr mark. These aircraft are 25+ years old.

The MiG-29 (particularly the early ones) are still 'old school' Soviet era designs, which although rugged aren't really designed for long service.

Personally, I'm not surprised at all if the MiG-29N/NUB gets the axe.

At LIMA 07, I saw several 'aircraft maintenance organisations' from various former Soviet republics present, most probably hoping to sell overhaul and refurbishment programmes to the TUDM.

I didnt want to say it ....but yes....it looks to be $$$$$$. New minister laa....

Agree with you re standardizing on 1 plane type....like the F-16 which has been progressively developed...but then susah mau buat duit la . Alasan NAM tu camo baiiik punya.... ;)

Just look at South of the border... F-16s and for lesser roles A-4s/F-5s..then can buy 2-3 dozen...ni 18 Mig29s, 8 F/A-18s, Hawk 200s, Su30s...now Grippen/Chinese fighters?

on a lighter note... IMHO F-16 tak cun..Mig29 and Hornets nampak more rugged la. :lol:

On the other hand, new aircraft coming into inventory....means can buy more new kits...maybe new decal sheets / PE/ Resin....actually it might be a good thing after all for us modellers and LHS ;)

Firstly, it is a sad news TUDM going to phase out the lovely plane since it's my favourite modern plane. Secondly, I have to agree with f-4dablemodels with his opinion.. For what we waste our money for old horse. Upgrade/maintenance does add a cost to the plane. If it is not economically viable, better sell/retired the aircraft and get a new and better one.. At least in long term run, it can save money and technologically is in par with other nation..

P/S Again I agree with shamsul251.. F-16 is ugly.. IMHO feel like they are really a sayur in combat in a sense that they doesn't look mean enough to pose a threat :P ..


my 2 sen

yeah, well looks are one thing, but they sure kick the asses of any sukhoi and migs that came up against them...not just kick, but wipe the floor, step on and spit ;)

Lads,

Correction. It seems that news is true. This will be soon. I can't tell you what they are looking for but in terms of modeling perspective, it will be fresh!!!!

Sarjana Six Zero, out!!

I got a noob question :)
Our Mig29, has they ever been put into any action before.. I mean, not only mission.. but a real combat ^_^ ?

I wonder to what extend will our national military threat can actually be?
Any laymen comparison of our country air force to others?

Our TUDM is like a season shopper only. No long term plans. Maybe is due to the Air Force Chief keep on changings. Hence even our fighers follow the same trend. First the Fulcrums, then the Hornets, then the Flankers. So what next?
The only action these Mig-29N of ours ever done I think are the flying displays for the LIMAs and F-1s. Maybe next in the line is the F/A-18D. (Too few to do anything).

Don't think that is the case lah.

More likely is that the MiG-29N/NUB was an interim fighter aircraft, pending purchase of something more potent.

While politics (e.g. intenational relations) certainly have a part to play in practically all defence deals, affordability is another factor.

I recall vaguely that the cost of the 18 MiG-29's we purchased is less than what we paid for the whole F/A-18D programme (8 aircraft, weapons & training). Sounds like good value for money?

Comes down to getting the best balance of numbers of each type and the capability of each type to perform specific missions for 'X' amount of dollars.

I suppose I would have favoured a single type purchase for logistics commonality reasons, but regardless what I think, I understand the reason for buying US, Russian, British, et al is also not to keep all eggs in one basket, in case of some unforeseen situation (e.g.- economic sanctions, arms embargo, etc.).

Lot of money for something "interim" I would say? Like the skyhawks....

As usual, its a lot more profitable to have many "interims" instead of solid "long term"

In my book, screwed up policy is just that, screwed up. Call a spade a spade.

Let's put those non-machinery factors like politics aside... :P

Question: Can our 18 mig-29 here really "Fight"? :D

If it were up to me, the F-16 would be my choice for the TUDM - I would have bought American.

But, I think some more knowledgeable heads here will tell you that the F-16 wasn't even on the table. Understand that TUDM doctrine states a preference for a twin engine design for overwater safety.

Before I say more, I know that the A-4 & Hawk 108/208 are also single engine aircraft. Possibly the 'doctrine' has a waiver for lower cost trainer / CAS aircraft?

Then you also have to think about what was available around the timeframe the contracts for the MiG-29N & F/A-18D were concluded. That would be around 1992-93.

If you didn't want the F-16, F/A-18, Mirage 2000, could you wait an indefinite period for the Super Hornet, Rafale, Eurofighter, etc. all of which were still in development?

The MiG-29 was probably available for quick delivery in large numbers for a reasonable amount of money.

Also need to bear in mind when a nation buys US built systems, the type of weapons approved are dependent on the balance of power and threat level in the region, which means a country may have to make do with less than the best, even if they could afford it, so as not to spark off an arms race.

For example, our F/A-18D's originally did not come with AIM-120 AMRAAM AAMs, for that matter the US also denied Thailand's request for the same AAM. Malaysia procuring the MiG-29, and the R-77 kind of changed the balance, and now we have AMRAAMs in service with our neighbors.

I believe this country did not want to be dictated what they could buy or fly by someone else, or to be dependent on a sole source of arms.

I would say so.

They performed pretty well in exercises held with the USN & USAF.

During Cope Taufan 2006, I heard they whipped PACAF F-15's from Kadena in DACT, but lost out in BVR. Heard the Hawk did very well too.

Equipment aside, I have to say that our pilots are very experienced, and probably are career fighter pilots, who are in it for the long haul.

Thanks for the info Jason..
^_^

Our MiGs is just reaching 1000++ hrs except the UBs, which understandably have to bear most of the training load for the whole squadron. They all just undergo the 1000 hrs major overhaul last 2 or 3 years back. So, IMHO, fatigue life is not the issue here.

Plus, we already have major capability in maintaining & servicing the MiGs via ATSC. ATSC & TUDM also already do some modification for our MiG to carry the ACM pod compatible with other western a/c in their inventory and some other serious project which I'm declined to elaborate further.

In short, our MiG are among the most capable MiG-29 in service now and able to handle the current treat plus future treat as well if we do invest some money in the avionic upgrade.

ATSC not yet secure the contract to maintain our Sukhoi, So if the MiGs is gone, ATSC also will die slowly.

I'm with Tigershark in this case,

"Our TUDM is like a season shopper only. No long term plans at all "

I should start my mogok lapar for 3 days now. :(

I think there has never been any doubt of the spirit and ability of our pilots and crew - look at the Skyhawk, Caribou or Nuri crews and what they achived in such difficult conditions over so many years. Also, our own home grown support industry building skills and expertise almost from scratch.

Unfortunately they are handicapped by the policy makers and politicians with their "season shopping" ;)

Like it or not, it is all intertwined in the big scheme of things. National defence is not just about how well equipped our fighters are. Equipment is only as good as the thinking behind it. And our problem is that the people who do the thinking are often self-interested.

Emotional topic for many I think. I learnt and saw a lot first hand when my dad was in the forces. I see the same thing in this MIG29 saga (like Skyhawk, Sibmas, HK33, Steyr, Submarine etc) Expect to see more in the future....

I think it they are gonna do it, just buy another batch of F18. Gripen is single engine (doctrine??), Rafale, Typhoon etc too expensive
Want good interceptor with twin engine? ENGLISH ELECTRIC LIGHTNING

But then again why we need specific interceptor force? I think any modern fighter is multi role enough....smells like ***** to me

landy,

I understand what you're saying.

If it sounds like I'm putting down anyone's comments here, that isn't my intention.

We live in an imperfect world, and in militaries the world over there have numerous politically linked, and doubtful procurements made - no need to say any more or elaborate.

But, IMHO not everything is like that. So, what I'm doing is just offering some reasonable explanations to consider.

Many of you may turn out to be correct in the end, but at least look at some the very real considerations behind everything, and eliminate it one at a time if other facts are available.

I have absolutely no idea what is the MiG-29's airframe fatigue life, accumulated flight hours, TUDM aircrew min flight hours requirement, etc. but since we've had the aircraft for 10-12 years now, it should be significant.

If 1000++ hrs is correct, then we simply cross the possibility of limited fatigue life off the list of possibilities. :P

Uish.. that is good choice.. I like their olive drab color camoflage.. :lol: ...

LOL, no problem Jason. Excellent discussion and as always, I admire your level headed thinking (compared to mine haha).

As part of my contribution to MINDEF decision making and national defence, here is my idea for MIG29 replacement:

1. If no budget or need to pay with palm oil or proton car


2. If got middle level budget, can refurbish


3. If got fully loaded budget


:D

Guys

I believe and understand, that due to geographic and topographic conditions of our beautiful country, twin engine front line aircraft are preffered since the F-5 days. This was one of the reasons that the F-16 and the Mirage 2000 were passed when offered to us among other things.

At around the same time the Tornado deal went down south and we ended up with the Hawks....perhaps if the Tornados came then we would have a different front line with a singler country type...then the Russians offered the Mig at reasonable prices.....it met with the twin config and we went about getting it .......because at that time......if not mistaken the US congress did not want to sell us the Hornets..... and kept the F-16 for the South East Asian Region.......then after that the deal for the Hornets came thru as US wanted to get us back from the Russians.......but I think it was too late....by then...........and as to our crew and pilots.......well I would say that is with any in any country .....but we hold our own in the international forum not only now but since formation. Military flying in Malaysia is not an easy feet............and I have heard 1st hand stories .......of the guts and bottle that these guys go thru .......on various combat and non combat sorties day in and day out.......

This is just my view ..........no offence to anyone or anybody

If the migs are too go.....then I am sure we will get something as equally interesting and more building for us modellers

Rgds
Mr B

Damn!! That's a good what-if subject to do.....what more with Trumpy's kits available these days...maybe should start a what-if MIG29 replacement GB :D

Although in reality the EE Lightnings may not last over the south china sea chasing away the baddies...they are sooo very thirsty aircraft... :lol:

Was just doing some calculations:

If we assume the MiG-29N fleet has on average logged 1,500 flight hours each since entering service in 1995, that would equate to an average of just 110 hrs per year.

Can someone comment what this figure indicates?

I don't know for sure, and could be grossly mistaken but it looks a little low to me, when you consider that there are minimum aircrew flight time requirements in air forces and air arms to maintain currency and safety standards.

How many hours does a TUDM pilot need to log permonth to maintain currency?

If we look at the example of the F-16C Block 25 being retired after 25 years of service, with almost 8,000 flight hours logged, the average flight hours per year is 300+.

I know it may not be a fair comparison, for many reasons though, e.g. size of fleet, combat operations (Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Southern Watch, OEF, OIF,..), but just food for thought.

Jason, about how many hrs TUDM MiG's pilot need to log every month, ask Bud Bilko, I think Mr Sarjana know better than me. :}

But do remember, there is a time, I think in the end of 1990s, our MiGs fleet was plagued with lack of spare parts support from the Russian. It's take quite a a long time for ATSC to reestablish the spare parts supply and new SOP for spare parts management with the Russian.

At that time, many MiGs was grounded and there is also report of cannibalism in order to maintain the readiness of a whole fleet.

TUDM tunggu keputusan kerajaan ganti MiG-29N

KUALA LUMPUR 3 Jun - Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) masih menunggu keputusan daripada kerajaan mengenai cadangan penggantian pesawat MiG-29N dengan pesawat tempur yang lain.

Panglima TUDM, Jeneral Tan Sri Azizan Ariffin berkata, sementara kajian mengenainya dilakukan, pesawat MiG-29N akan beroperasi seperti biasa.

''Sebanyak 16 pesawat jenis MiG- 29N ini disenggara seperti biasa secara berperingkat-peringkat mengikut jadual,'' katanya pada sidang akhbar selepas program derma darah sempena sambutan 51 tahun TUDM di Pangkalan TUDM Kuala Lumpur di sini hari ini.

Menteri Pertahanan, Datuk Seri Dr. Ahmad Zahid Hamidi kelmarin berkata, pesawat MiG-29N TUDM itu akan digantikan dengan pesawat pemintas lain bagi memperkuatkan lagi pasukan tersebut.

Menurutnya, pesawat MiG-29 akan dilupuskan dengan menjualnya kepada syarikat-syarikat tertentu atau ke negara-negara yang dibenarkan oleh Pertubuhan Bangsa-Bangsa Bersatu (PBB).

Azizan berkata, pesawat MiG-29N akan digantikan dengan pesawat pemintas lebih berkebolehan dengan pelbagai guna yang unggul, tangkas dan berkeupayaan untuk menyerang dan mematahkan serangan musuh.

Katanya, pesawat itu juga nanti boleh melakukan pelbagai tugas, mempunyai skop operasi yang lebih luas dan mampu beroperasi pada jarak jauh.

''Pesawat seperti Sukhoi SU- 30MKM dan FA 18D Hornet adalah antara pesawat pelbagai guna yang kita ada buat masa ini.

''Pesawat seperti ini perlu ditambahkan bilangannya untuk memperkuatkan lagi pasukan TUDM,'' ujar beliau.

Sementara itu katanya, kira-kira 300 anggota daripada pelbagai jabatan dan anggota Badan Kebajikan Angkatan Tentera (Bakat) yang merupakan isteri-isteri anggota TUDM dijangka menjayakan program derma darah itu.

Katanya, mereka datang dengan kerelaan sendiri tanpa sebarang paksaan untuk menjayakan program murni ini.

hmm...

the changes is good... but again what ever happen to the proposed for Nuri replacement.. that also put on hold kan? IIRC.. correct me ek if i'm wrong..

should they proceed with the Nuri replacement first? :rolleyes:

kuman

Hmm...abandon dedicated interceptor and go for multi role. Well I would have thought that made more sense since day one for our size and budget.

So, replacement = more Su's or Hornets?

Or yet another type (Rafale/Gripen etc?)...My guess is a totally new type...why? new supplier mahhh......ching chinggg!!!!!

Amazing then, air force our size with 3 different front line fighters

More Hornets lah please...

and come to think of it, the 30 years old tigers still soldier on, and the Mig sudah mau pencen??

Landyshah, if we have a fully loaded budget, I would the TUDM to purchase the INCOM X-Wing Starfighter. All weather interceptor and got all around force field somemore rather than the Tie fighter that did not have any shield. :lol:

Some light joke in the afternoon guys... :D

it is confirmed today in the news that MiG29N will be sold & change with the new interceptor....but still no news which aircraft they have in mind :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

some foreign companies already interested to buy this old plane from RMAF

TUDM jual MIG-29N

KUALA LUMPUR: Pesawat MIG-29N milik Tentera Udara Diraja Malaysia (TUDM) akan dilupuskan dengan dijual kepada syarikat yang berminat untuk membelinya, kata Menteri Pertahanan Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi.

Beliau berkata, beberapa syarikat luar negara sudah menyatakan minat membeli pesawat itu bagi keperluan pertahanan negara masing-masing.

Namun, katanya, kementerian perlu berbincang dengan Kementerian Kewangan terlebih dahulu bagi mendapatkan kelulusan untuk melupuskan aset pertahanan negara itu.

“Ini kerana beberapa perkara lain perlu difikirkan seperti menetapkan harga sesebuah pesawat terbabit sebelum dijual,” katanya kepada pemberita selepas menghadiri majlis pengumuman penganjuran Perkhidmatan Pertahanan Asia (DSA) 2010 di sini, semalam.

Zahid berkata, pesawat MIG-29N akan diganti pesawat pemintas yang lain bagi memperkuatkan TUDM.

TUDM kini memiliki 16 pesawat pejuang MIG-29N.

“Banyak aset dan peralatan pertahanan yang telah melampaui batas usia. Jadi kita mengambil langkah seperti ini dengan menggantikan aset-aset itu secara berperingkat bagi memperkuatkan pasukan pertahanan negara,” katanya.

f-16???.... :blink: