Dear Sifus,
I need some advices on applying washes for my armour and aircraft, kindly assist:

A. Future Floor Finish
A1. According to FSM magazine, it is best to coat the model with the Pledge Future Floor Finish to avoid incompatibilities arise from different types of paints and thinners, can sifus let me know where I can get the Future, the shop's name and its location, any brand name? I dropped by a ACE hardware at Sunway and the staff does not know about what Future.

A2. To coat the completed model with Future, it is coated hand painted or can be airbrushed? Does it need to be further diluted with any solvent before used?

B. Turpentine
B1. It is also mentioned that after the Future, use the Turpentine and Oil Colour to wash the models, it also mentioned can use Thinner. If Turpentine, may I know if any particular strength or type of Turpentine should be used?

B2. If I use Thinner, is it Leveling Thinner or just plain Mr Hobby Thinner?

C. Oil Colours
C1. It mentioned a brand called Winsor and Newton (burnt umber color), may I know which art shop, the location of the shop where I can get them?

C2. What colours shall I used for Armoured, Aircraft and Helicopters?

Your assistance is very much appreciated.

If it did brought up before in the previous discussion, kindly provide the links to the thread, thanks.

Regards.

A. Ace hardware, all branches, just go to the window cleaning detergent areas.

A2. I used to hand brush with a flat brush.

As for washes, I use water color and oils as well.

water color,
add some dish washing detergent to break the surface tention

oils,
I'm still using industrial turpentine, some use mineral spirit to thin it.

you can get lots of oil paint in a book shop in Bangsar called "chip lee" sounds like that but can't remember the actual spelling.

Loh,
my 2 cts worth on what I do....

Futures can be bought in ACE hardware and in most branches. Alternatively there is the new material that multifilla is carrying and by Leong's account, may be a good alternative.

I do not thin futures. They can be sprayed on without dilution quite well. Hand painting works too but you will see strokes/bubbles if you are not patient.

Thinner with oils for wash should be avoided. The thinner will breakdown futures and also your base coat whether you apply in acrylics or lacquer. I use industrial turpentine with my oil paints. You should explore using poster colours which EngHui and Richard are experts in, for washes.

Windsor and Newton can be bought in most Art shops like Venus Art and Nanyang (both in Petaling St), Moltiwalla ( row behind Sou Kee- at Jalan Ampang, near Ampang Point), Akisev and another 2 art shop in Tmn Melawati., etc... You should check out Popular Bookstore too as some of them do carry oils. Careful to not buy crayons which are labelled as oil sticks.

As for the colours, I use lamp black, burnt umber, burnt sienna in different mix as they are useful for different areas to simulate shadows and a bit of brownish dirt effect. If you do visit an art shop, do buy a box of oils like Marie oil paints in 12 or 18 shades. They are very useful for experiments.

Hope this will help

Loh,

If I remember correctly, they re-named Future to "Pledge with Future shine". Bottle looks something like in this link - Pledge

It's actually for shining up the floor so you should find it in the floor wax/wash section which is also where all the window detergent etc are located.

ACE Hardware in Mid Valley Megamall had quite a few bottles of future the last time i was there 2 weeks ago. Go right to the back where the floor polish / window cleaner etc are.

Rather steep at RM 50 + per bottle, but consider it an investment as one bottle will last a long time.

Agree with Mr Loo, in my experience can spray future out of the bottle, sometimes I thin with acrylic thinner to lessen the shine or can mix with acrylic flat to create semi gloss/satin. Its quite useful stuff, but not the solution to everything.

I have not had problems with oil/enamel wash over acrylics. They do not "makan" each other.

Hope this helps

[QUOTE]


Loo correction , Future cannot be found in most Ace Hardware and no where else. What more if their staff do not know what it is.

For die hard future users do not be shy just whisper to Leong for the alternative future

leong,

me not a die hard future user, just found that up to now it can fulfill my requirement. I still have 70% of future after 3 years using.

will try ur H2O one finish.

try ace hardware at summit USJ.....bought my future there couple of months back

midvalley have 4 bottles left

Bomber Vince,

Actually I went to 4 Ace outlets and only the 5th in Summit only found Future at Rm 55.90.
Your bottle with 70 % left after 3 years should be long expired by now. Donate to home ministry to sapu lantai.

I give you fresh stock H20 in 85g just convenient for scalemodelers use. Too good not to share this product's versatility with members and to wait another 3 years for you to finish balance I would have long retired. For you it is free. No hard selling as will not get rich or sufficient for retirement at only Rm 10.00 An amazing product that fulfills many craft uses and more applications yet to be discovered.

Just whisper like buying your first condom when we meet.
:P

Mr Leong,
i said it out loud when i bought my first condom...hahahahahaha


ok back to the topic, me is not a die hard FUTURE fan either but i still proudly had the first FUTURE bought at ACE in 2001 for 29.90... still work ok .. NEvertheless i'm not really an aircraft dude which consume more future then me.

Ok Loh,

to answer more about washes...
well basically i rarely put a wash on my tank these days. Those days i just wash with a mixture of oil colors + mineral spirit. I found that using turpentine will eat the paint job regardless of what type of paint or clear coat u applied prior to that.... that's why i prefer the method of post shading which made popular by James Blackwell...
SO these days, i just do little wash which is only water color and water.. no more oil paints.
As for oil paints, there is 2 art shop in petaling street VEnus Art and Nanyang Art Supply. If u are in luck, u can find old tube on SALE. I bought some tubes in 2000 and still last today which one cost RM8.90 and normal price is rm14.
There are also a few shops in Taman Melawati somewhere near Malaysia Institue of Art. They got Rowney and Windsor Newton too...
and some more art shop along the old Lim Kok Wing...

Hope this help.
Now i'm about to get excited with the H2O thingy....so MR Leong,just pray for me to pop at ur store.... huhuhuh....

haha, dunno that Future will expired... pheweet... H2O

Turps are generally use in washes. Just get the good quality turps as these days turps in certain outlets has kerosene in it. Kerosene will eat your acrylic base coat. Just don't let the washes sit on the kit too long if you are worry. Work with a small area and wipe the excess washes within a few minutes.

[QUOTE]


Tuan Silantra,

Like what ROTU taught me be adventurous do or die and not be afraid to try new things. I am also excited that finally a product like H20 serves many crafts applications is available especially for decals and varnish as well from high gloss, matt gloss or low flat with simple water dilution without need of decal aids like microsol etc.

We had for years sold successfully Matt sealer, supergloss all water base products that cannot be use as tranfer decals. As varnish or sealer they are perfect for indoor use and they give perfect gloss with polishing. We have cross cut wood blanks notably known to absorb what ever polish or layers applied without ever showing any shine because of the wood grain alignment. However once sealed with matt sealer followed by super gloss and waxing it is a professional finish. Do see sample in our showroom. They make superb finish for wooden display bases. Yet we have not announced these to scalemodelers as the need is not a priority for aerosol spray paint takes care of most wooden bases. Same as Military armourers do not want a shiny target for their vehicles unlike the air guys shoot me if you can showoff with their shinning planes. With so many decal application problems we finally had to shout out------hopefully helping Die hards 1, 2, 3 and now 4?

Just brought a ghost rider model and will try H20 with polishing for the bling bling finish will keep you all posted.


Bomber Vince,

Like all chemicals, shelf life deteriorates with time. Please come for your fresh alternative future.

Dear Multifilla or Mr Leong,
Can I have the full address of your shop selling the "H2O" that I may use it to replace the Future? At Balakong right? should not be far from my office at Taman Bukit Anggerik, Cheras.

Mind tell me how to go to your place from Leisure Mall, Cheras, and your business operation hours?

Thanks in advance.
PY Loh aka Holy P

[QUOTE]

Dear Holy P,

We used to be at Tmn Bukit Anggerek now permanently in No 1, Jalan 2/2 Tmana Industry Selesa Jaya Operating Mon to Sat 8.30 to 4.30pm Location map in www.multifilla.com

From Tmn Bukit anggerik follow the signs to Econsave and come out from Tmn Hussein Onn the toll free alternative road to Cheras Highway. At Jaya Jusco make U turn under flyover towards the Mines. 3 km from Jusco look out for sign Boards on left for Tmn Industri Selesa Jaya/tanming Jaya. At Petronas on your left turn into road that passes RHB, Public bank on your left. 200m from petronas at middle of road would be a Guardhouse. Ahead on left you see No 1 deep purple building. Turn left ,we are 3rd Industrial building in Pink.
Showroom upstairs.

Seeing you soon. You will find H20 a multiuse covercoat varnish indeed value for money.

Neither I a hardcore FUTURE user, but as a armor modeller may my little experiece help you.

Future Floor Finish
As I said, I'm not a hardcore FUTURE user, but I did bought a bottle of this liquid back to few months back. But after my frined toldd me that future will create a 'fog' on clear part after a few years and will become yellowish, I stop using it. But still can be used on those tank with darker color, like olive drab, german gray or brozen green. Credit to a "old' modeller. :D

A2.
I airbrushed FUTURE straight from the bottle.

Normally, I will apply a final coat of Future after every wash, dry brush, decal and weathering, let it dry for a least one day, I will spray the final coat, let it be matt, semi gross or gross. I will use the Gunze lacquer for the final coat.

Turpentine
B1.
Use only artist turpentine ot oil thinner for the wash. I experieced a disaster on my Dragon's Panzer II, which have a lot of detail. Most of the cemented parts are broken and finally leave me no choice but put the kit under "KIV"

B2. If I use Thinner, is it Leveling Thinner or just plain Mr Hobby Thinner?
Dont use lacquer thinner. There are a few choice,
a. oil thinner
b. artist odourless turpentine
Both of them can get in a art shop, I will prefer Art Friend at The Garden.

c. Supa Dupa Thinner
Get it from Home Depot at 1U.

Oil Colours
C1. You can get it at any art shop

C2. You might need burnt umber, ivory black/lamp black and you can get a small tube of payne grey to paint the chipping effect.

Hope my 2 cents worth to help. :lol:

Dear Sirs,
This is what I want to apply the washes:



DUKW British Royal Armay that served in Malaysia that I actually first bought to build for MGB09, but since I almost get it done, I wish to submit for the coming SMM2009.

Hope you guys can provide suggestions for my below doubts on my coming First Washes:
1. Is multifilla's H2O suitable for our plastic kit coating after paint and decal before washing? Won't damage the paint, cements and kits?

2. Any precautions I need to take in using H2O or Future in coating for washing?

3. Multifilla got sell the Turpentine and Oil Paints for washes as well?

4. You mean after the H2O or Future, I can also opt for water color+soap liquid instead of using Oil Paint+Turpentine?

5. As the base paint color of the kits body is Mr Hobby 308 Light Sky Gray FS363675, what color of the Oil Paint or water Color I should use for washes?

6. Do I need to use more than 1 color for this washes?

7. For this kit, which areas you think I should pay more attention in washes?

8. Kirin, after you coat and washes, you coat again with Gunze lacquer? Won't be too much layers for the kit?

Many thanks in advance.

Definitely a long list of questions Holy P but I will try to answer them carefully.

First of all you should prepare the following steps before washing:

1. All decals are applied (I see that you have done that). But can you see any silvering on decals?
2. Gloss coat the entire kit. Use any clear gloss coat from acrylic or lacquer.
3. Apply another coat of gloss clear to decal areas if decal silvering are found. This is step is to be done once the previous coat of gloss has dried.
4. Slowly and lightly sand the the gloss coats which are used to cover silvering areas. Fine sand paper would do the the job.

Once you have the above-mentioned steps done, we are ready for washing.

Answers to your questions ...

1. Unable to answer as I haven't tried it out.
2. Irregardless of any types of clear coat, spray in light layers. Go thin and build-up the gloss coat with many layers (provided the earlier layers have dried).
3. ???
4. Stick with oils. You will find it easier to control (provided you have applied gloss coats).
5. For your light base coat, I don't think you should be using dark colors like black and raw umber, for example. You might want to try dark grey. On horizontal areas, you may use burnt sienna on places you would expect heavy corrosion. For green areas, you can use raw umber.
6. Yes but on different areas and not on top of each wash.
7. Apply washes where dirt will build-up e.g. corners, recessed details, edges and etc.
8. No harm applying another thin clear coat on top washes but you would need matt coated surfaces for the next step of weathering.

Since washes is rather new to you, I would suggest that you do it with someone who has experience. Why not request the society to run hands-on workshop on this? If not, a shot clinic would help.

1. H20 is a waterbase varnish for paints that dries glossy or matt with water dilution into a film membrane. Water base varnish will not damage dried paint. Caution required if you are using watercolors which can smear if care is not taken in brushing over with H20. Airbrushing H20 over watercolor is not a problem. As waterbase, it will not damage cement , decals and plastics as formulated as a flexible covercoat and top coat varnish for decals.

2. Precaution is to allow H20 to dry before washing. Probably apply as matt and wash thereafter gloss over wash to your requirement.

3. Multifilla sells acrylics and oil paints.

4. As H20 dries into a waterproof membrane, watercolor or mild soap would assist wash well as colors will not be absorbed. We have a waterbase retarder that prolongs drying time of acrylics and watercolors. A better alternative than alkaline soap being corrosive.

8. Gunze lacquer presume to be solvent base and applying over water base varnish might have differential drying shrinkages.

An additional feature of H20 that dries as a flexible film membrane is to use this feature in localised weathering with pen like wire brush or fine sanding till membrane edges lift or curls. Somewhat like flaking paint effect that will not break off as you rub finger over.

Hope to be of help as have not washed before. If answers make sense happy washing. :D

Hello Mr Leong:

Just two questions with regards to your H20 varnish. When dried, can we remove the H20 varnish with water? Is the H20 varnish latex-based or something like that?

[QUOTE]

H20 dries as a flexible waterproof membrane that resists water penetration. When dried, water will not remove varnish not even in matt form. Only way to remove is by manual sanding with sandpaper. If wrongly applied or spilled just wipe with damp cloth before it dries.

It is not latex base as it dries transparent.


For its waterproofing features craft users are currently applying to:
1. Canvas shoes to protect decorative hand painting.
2. Folk artists to protect outdoor stools, benches, letterboxes, flowerpots, serving trays that leaves ugly white ring marks under ice drinks if coated with acrylic varnish.
3. Knife collectors, forgers as corrosion and smear free protection.
4.Polymer clay artists in glossing or matt varnish. Same applies to scalemodelers sculptures. Note acrylic varnish do attack polymer clay surfaces even painted to become tacky to feel. H20 dries with nice feel.
5. Decal covercoat in non fired ceramics.
6.Rattan works like teapot handles, basketry for waterproof and flexible protection
7.Paper quilling, cardmakers for its matt sheen

For Rm 10.00 a bottle I feel like having written a thesis.

:P

Thanks Kenny, on steps to-do before washing, that is taking care of the decals, I assume no more slivering now as I applied the Mr Hobby Mr Mark Softer on each of the decal.

The list of items needed for washes:
Settle Decal Silvering ... checked
Clear Coat (H2O Varnish) to add some 5% water for semi-gloss ... checked
Water Color ... checked
Waterclear Retarder (to act as water to mix with water color) ... checked
Payne's Gray paint for chipping effects ... checked

okay, shall try the above on an old small kit first before to my DUKW.

Will update all the sifus on my this Journey of the Washes.....

Thanks again.

Mr Leong,

I was going to see you for this RM10.00 but ended up additional RM200 investment in my this hobby this morning, ha ha ha...!

Regards.

Good luck Holy P. Will catch-up with after CNY. ;)

[QUOTE]


Hahaha Thanks Loh for keeping the economy moving. A good investment reassurance.

Do note the retarder is very effective in slowing down drying of watercolor till wash is satisfactory. Otherwise use less and add some water to watercolor.

Now that you have the decal paper do print with waterproof ink and H20 covercoat 1:1 water dilution and tell us if you still need Mr Mark softener. Take care not to over soak the decal. Just soak till it curls lift on to newspaper till covercoat slides. Need the water soluble slime adhesive for easy transfer and fixing.

Nice having met you and happy washing.

Loh, anxious to know your progress. But have a very nice New year first with family then back to solitary confinement in your craft.

Much appreciate feedback on H20 covercoat and the need to use Mr mark softener.

Do hope H20 covercoat, decal paper will assist DIY decals at minimum cost without additional additives softeners,setters etc and trouble free decal applications.

Happy New Year

Real bad....
Before H20...



After H20....



continue....

Note what happened to the decals...
Before H20...


After H20...


Before H20...


After H20...



The H20 seems to remain bubble drops on the decals...

Dear Mr Leong and those who had used the H20 Covercoat, please advice if I had made any mistakes:
1. I wanted a semi-gloss effect, so as instructed not more then 5% of water to be added, I used the dropper to drop 20 drops of H20 Covercoat, and 1 drop of clean water (battery water).
2. I find it is kind of sticky but in the beginning I am able to airbrush it with 0.03mm airbrusher.
3. I noted the airbrush effect on the model is not that even anyway.
4. I noted too the coating becomes bubble drops on the decals.
5. I decided to coat another layer, but for those areas I managed to airbrush, the surface become kind of glossy and loses it semi-gloss or flat matt.
6. After a while, the H20 in my airbrush had clogged the airbrush nostril and totally blocked it, I need to clean the blockage, need extra effort to clean it actually.
7. I tried on my 0.02mm airbrush, totally clogged the nostril, can't airbrush, due to the clogs, I can't try on second layer coating or on other model.

For those who had used the H20 covercoat, please enlighten what errors I had made above?

Thanks in advance.

Dear Loh,

Hope your first attempt with H20 is on a trial piece. I will trouble shoot the causes and suggestion to overcome these. Before continuing thanks for the feedback.

1. As H20 can be diluted to 1:1 ratio with water and the 5 % water can be still too little. Dilute further till the dried surface meets your semi gloss requirement. Hope battery water is distilled water and not acid water. In fact any clean water or mineral water will do.

2. It can be tacky during the drying stage. Once dried it is tack free.

3. Unevenness on surface is due to presence of silicon oil commonly used in plastic molding. The surface need to be cleaned with alcohol to remove oil. Compared to the missiles presumably painted, H20 shows even application. Airbrushing will not assure even application as long as silicon oil is present. In molding process, silicon oil is sprayed into the injection mold for easier release of plastic model. Some even add surfactant like soap water, levelling agent to reduce surface tension when using Future for this reason.

4. Bubbles presence on factory preprinted decal shows presence of water repellient coating to protect decal. This is to protect the decal surface from sticking to each other. Not too certain what the protective coating might be could be wax.. Try cleaning of before using H20 varnish. If you DIY your sticker and cover coat with H20 this problem will not arise as you are varnishing with the same compatible material or one without protective finish. Try fan brushing h20 undiluted over decal prior soaking. Thereafter matt spray after decal application to cover gloss for overall matt.

5. This is normal as more coating of H20 you applied the more glossy it becomes. Diluting 1:1 and building up gloss with subsequent layers till matt or low flat satisfaction. Try localise coating by painting with fan brush of areas missed out in airbrushing will compensate uneven glossiness.

6. H20 dries as a flexible film. It does dry fast as one will notice even in painting. Faster drying with airbrushing as H20 dispersion is now in atomised minute droplets that evaporates the water much faster. Suggest if airbrushing be required dilute H20 with more water or fan brushing will slow down drying.

7. As a water clear polymer dispersion without presence of particles, the blockage of 0.2 nozzle is due to the dried film. Retarding the drying , purging the airbrush with water helps but before it dries. At lease it dries as an elastic film that can be peeled off the metal nozzle and not as a solid rigid acrylic blockage.


Thank you again for the feed back and hope suggestion helps.

Happy New Year and apologies for the late reply as just returned from Saigon.

Loh,

there's no way we can clean decals, they are too fragile. I never have this problem before when I use future or any clear coat to overcoat my decals.

as for the water bubbles on the decals, it's due to the surface tension, I don't think adding water will helps as water usually have a strong surface tension.

I used to break the water surface tension with dish washing detergent, but not sure that it can be used on H2O.

As for decal preparation, I normally apply a layer of Future, let it dry for 2 days, and then apply decals. I use gunze mark softener only, no setter were used. I've found that mark softener react with future and create a good bond between the decals and the surface.

careful on the mark softener as it may over-react to certain decals, so the amount that we need to use are varies, depends on decals. then I use a flat brush to gently squeeze of the excess softener under the decals, then let it dry for few days.

to seal decals, I used to use future but now I found a better way, using industrial thinner, yes, I mean the "plastic eating" industrial thinner!
Now I use any gloss clear coat diluted with a 3:7 paint:thinner ratio, spray lightly so that the clear coat dries before it can "makan" the plastic, remember never over-spray in one spot. But I do wants the clear coat to "makan" bit of the decals...here's the best part, any decal silvering will be gone by now.

By this time the plane will be glossy, apply your wash this time, Water color is the best and the most forgiving. Only apply washes on gloss surface as any mistakes or over-done can be wipe off easily, then apply the final coat to seal everything. I u use Gunze flat clear, it will turn up semi gloss on glossy surface, spray a few layers and you will get a matt coat.

Hope I'm not too "cheong hei"

Do the plane now looks exactly like the last pic shown? Have u made a decision yet to either "save" the plane or do a re-work?

More pics will helps.

thanks and happy modelling.


Leong,
No offence as I'm just explaining the usual method I used.

Happy modelling everyone.

Thanks guys for the advice.

Currently the 0.02mm and 0.03mm airbrush nostrils are having a thinner spa for destress. All are severly clogged with the residues, will try on the alternatives once they are back from the thinner spa now.

Already got some stock of future to try on, and for H2O, didn't know can dilute with water till 1:1 ratio, will try on later.

Thanks again and will update all with the progress.

good luck dude.

Do keep an eye on the o-rings of your a/b. These o-rings do not react with thinner very well.

Loh/Kenny,

Thanks for chipping in and explaining in detail as we are all assisting in trouble shooting these teething problem for first time users with an alternative Future.

We agree the bubbles agglomerating on the decal is due to surface tension on the factory printed decal caused by anti sticking agent like wax coating to prevent decals from sticking to each other. A mild surfactant like detergent helps to break tension and being water base H20 is ok.

Alternatively as pointed out by Kenny on decal preparation prior application, brush on undiluted H20 on decal let dry and soak as usual. There will not be any handling cracks as H20 is elastic. Such crazing cracks will appear upon handling on Future under magnification and possible decal yellowing in oxidation.

Sorry about the airbrush as I mentioned have not tried airbrushing before. Found brushing with fan brush works. Maybe diluting H20 or dipping nozzle in water in between use overcomes nozzle blockage. Will give you a fan brush for trouble in spa treatment.

Cheong Hei (long winded) as I am too helps in clear explanation.

actually I took out the rubber ring at the nostril before the thinner spa, but when I was fixing it back last night after the clog was cleared, I was quite careless and had broken the rubber ring, I tied the parts up assuming and hoping everything would be fine (look fine at this moment).

Thanks again.

the "o" ring should be made by teflon, it's chemical resistant. But removing it would still be the better way. Instead of giving the whole AB a spa, why not just give the nozzle a spa, just remove it frm the AB, then use a sharp needle to clear the clot.

As far I am concerned, all a/b uses rubber for o-rings (on the nozzle head) except for Badger and Iwata. Instead of using rubber o-rings, you can opt for Viton o-rings which is fluoro-based rubber. It's better than rubber but not as much as Teflon. I don't see the possibility of getting Teflon o-rings to replace existing rubber o-rings as they are first expensive in terms of material and machining, and secondly the design of rubber o-ring-ed a/b may not work with Teflon-designed o-rings.

thanks god my O ring are teflon, they are frm olympus

[QUOTE]

Did a R&D on cleaning factory printed decal to be free from anti blocking /anti sticking coating and found it can be cleaned of wax for subsequent smooth application of H20 covercoat. The cleaner used is Alcohol BP and wipe clean with tissue paper dipped in alcohol. Cleaning is to be done while decal is on the paper before soaking. Do conduct own test as not all decals covercoat can take alcohol cleaning. The consolation is even if factory printed covercoat is wiped off, H20 itself is a covercoat as long as lettering/pictures are still on decal paper and alcohol will not dissolve water soluble decal paper.

Loh,
Pictures of decal bubbling is caused by presence of anti blocking agent needing decal preparation/cleaning before H20